Where will all the trolleys/streetcars/LRVs go at at the end of the day?
 By Mark ForsytheThe Kansas City Post Much has been cussed and discussed about the light rail route in Kansas City. Will it cross the river? If so, how? Will it run down Grand? Main? Broadway? Will it go as far as the Plaza? Waldo? There are more questions than answers. I have a question that no proposed plan seems willing to address. Where will the maintenance facility be located? In all the zeal of putting a fixed guideway transit system in our urban core, it seems to me we're skipping over the nuts and bolts (literally) of the thing. Much like architect's renderings of a beautiful new building never show the ugly rooftop cooling towers, or power lines or other necessary infrastructure, our light rail dreams never show where we're going to park, store and work on our rail vehicles. The proposed routes I have seen all roughly agree on a north-south orientation through the urban core. That's all pretty pricey real estate last time I checked. It seems to me there's no logical, cost-effective location for a large maintenance facility anywhere along that route. Maybe the old Osco at the southwest corner of Westport and Main, but I doubt it has the size needed. That leaves us with having to build a maintenance spur off the main line that leads to wherever we end up building (or renovating) the facility. My suggestion? Just south of the 18th & Vine district. This accomplishes a lot of things. First, rather than just have a "spur to nowhere" we can connect the struggling Jazz District with downtown. What office worker wouldn't want to hop a streetcar over to 19th & Brooklyn for some Bryant's? Second, we already own a significant parcel of land in that neighborhood. The area outlined in blue is the KCMO Central Fleet Maintenance Facility. Even if that exact location can't be used, the land in that part of town is cheaper, and already zoned for what we want to use it for. Third, a spur down 18th Street gets us that much closer to Prospect. Many feel that Prospect would eventually be the next most logical north-south spine. And finally, we could actually bring some (real) economic development to the 3rd District instead of fake storefronts and failed call centers and restaurants. It's easy to get wrapped up in the fun parts of a project. As the old saying goes, the devil is in the details. Maintenance facilities for a major transit system should not be a detail. We've already learned that getting an NHL team in the Sprint Center will come with a detail of providing a million dollar practice facility. We shouldn't let our enthusiasm for light rail cause us to ignore the elephant in the room. Where will all the trolleys/streetcars/LRVs go at at the end of the day? |
posted by Mark at 8:25 AM
Comments on "Where will all the trolleys/streetcars/LRVs go at at the end of the day?"
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Bob Asher said ... (11:46 AM) :
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doinkman said ... (11:47 AM) :
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Mark said ... (12:49 PM) :
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mainstream said ... (1:07 PM) :
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mainstream said ... (1:17 PM) :
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DaveKCMO said ... (6:22 PM) :
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Bob Asher said ... (8:49 AM) :
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Kyle said ... (9:09 AM) :
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Mark said ... (9:18 AM) :
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Mark said ... (9:26 AM) :
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Mark said ... (9:32 AM) :
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Mark said ... (9:47 AM) :
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mainstream said ... (9:51 AM) :
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DaveKCMO said ... (10:37 AM) :
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Anonymous said ... (9:00 PM) :
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idan said ... (10:20 PM) :
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DaveKCMO said ... (10:14 PM) :
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Anonymous said ... (8:25 AM) :
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Craig said ... (9:04 PM) :
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Mark said ... (7:40 AM) :
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Craig said ... (11:29 AM) :
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Mark said ... (8:35 AM) :
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Anonymous said ... (11:37 AM) :
post a commentHow about the Harlem end of the line? I don't think real estate there is too pricey...
sounds like a good idea. Another option would be to take it the other way (west) to the W. bottoms and make a stop for Kemper and haunted houses. Commercial space over there has got to be pretty cheap.
Bob,
I thought about Harlem but it doesn't really have the extra advantages that an 18th & Vine spur does.
Doinkman,
I thought of the West Bottoms too but there's the whole 100 years flood that we seem to get every 10 years thing. What I'd like to do is put a trolley line (not light rail) down 12th St that turns south on Genessee and circles around Kemper and Hale Arenas.
I think your right on, Mark.
It's about time someone started thinking about serving people other than tourists and future, speculative double-income caucasian residents living on the line with forecasted development.
This serves two very important purposes: primarily it begins serves the underserved eastside, and secondarily fits in nicely with current city maintenance infrastructure.
Why not extend the east line a bit further east while we're at it?
Two additional thoughts - I wouldn't recommend the use of the Osco on Westport & Main - that Osco got an historic designation courtesy via the Landmarks Commission recently, courtesy of Glover, Maincor and City Council.
Secondly, have you thought about any 3rd district synergies with this extension?
kansas city southern basically offered their east bottoms facilities to the city last month as maintenance facility. you should watch that streaming video again... it was the same presentation where they asked the council to consider the whole transit picture (commuter rail, basically) instead of just one light rail line.
On that West Bottoms streetcar:
You might as well just loop it south of Kemper/Hale and swing it around eastbound down Caesar Chavez, probably bringing it all the back to the (ample) parking at Union Station.
I know in years past at the American Royal BBQ, parking and guest access down there has been just terrible. Bad to the point, that my team will not be competing this year because our friends and family cannot enjoy the party.
a little off topic-While they are a few years away, what about using the Intermodals planned for Richard Gebaur and Gardner as maintenance facilities? Couldn't we leverage those in to the plans for BNSF?
I know that doesn't account for the street cars but having different shops based on technology might make sense.
As for route discussions, the I35 commuter line should/ have the stop at Hale/Kemper just before Union Station and right after SW trafficway and KU MED
davekcmo,
You seem fixated on Warren Erdman's presentation. If I'm wrong I'll say it but I don't think KCS is going to be "giving" the city anything. I'm sure that the use of their East Bottoms facility will come at a nice price... For Kansas City Southern. Keep in mind Mr. Erdman's presentation also mentioned $20 million flyover bridges and other expensive details. Maybe you have that kind of jack in your wallet but I don't.
I'm not ignoring a regional transit plan. I'm trying to stay focused on satisfying the will of the voters at the lowest possible cost. I agree that "doing it right" is the best way to go, but sometimes "doing what you can afford" is the only option.
Bob Asher,
I like my 12th St bridge trolley because it connects the West Bottoms with downtown. I don't like my 12th St bridge trolley because it connects the West Bottoms with downtown. (grin)
Let's face it. Aside from a couple of weeks during the American Royal there isn't going to be much interest in riding a trolley to Kemper Arena. That's a pretty expensive once-a-year spur if you ask me. But.... If we use self-propelled trolleys like they run on Galveston Island the prospect of having idle track becomes much more affordable. You're not running overhead electrification. Just a couple of ribbons of steel in the street.
I think I'll do a full post on the Galveston Island system next week.
mainstream,
I threw the Osco building in there as an afterthought. It would make a nice transit depot though, wouldn't you agree? With the clock tower and surface space, I could envision bus to rail there as well as some kiosks. I don't know. I'm just throwing out ideas and seeing what sticks.
My 3rd District synergies right now remain fixated on the Jazz District. I think fixed-guideway transit would provide the tipping point needed. Much like the P&L District, we have made an investment in 18th & Vine and it's up to us to find a way to make it viable.
Kyle,
A long long time ago on my old campaign blog I posted that Gardner was missing a golden opportunity in their negotiations with BNSF by not asking for a commuter rail route in exchange for all the tax abatement, zoning, and general free stuff being given out for the hub. Who better ton contract and oversee a railroad line than a railroad?
As far as maintenance facilities, I think Richards-Gebaur and Gardner are out of reach for a starter line. Just too far.
Yep, and I would have to think it would be difficult for anyone to diagree who buys into the concepts of the starter line and it's general north -south path.
To Councilmembers Brooks and Curls (or their staff and friends) read this blog?
I think they should weigh in this and other important discussions being held by the Urban Society and KCDC.
It would also be a nice gesture for The Urban Society and KCDC to engage these two councilmembers.
use of an existing railyard (KCS or other) would not require destruction of any homes or buildings in the urban core, that's all i'm saying. all of us are fixated on one detail or another (ULR? BRT? grand? gondolas? smartmoves? everyone's got their thing.). it's not everyday that a Class I freight railroad offers its facilities (just look at Union Pacific's treatment of Amtrak through Missouri). of *course* there would be a cost... just like there will be a cost for collecting any property that the ATA or city doesn't already own (assuming the 18th street site you mention isn't possible). as an FYI, the old streetcar maintenance facility was at 48th and harrison, which is now a restored wetland and nature center.
Mark,
I like where you're going with the thinking. I do have some logistical concerns about how an actual passenger route would run when you have a spur like that, but I'm sure that's been solved before somewhere else.
As another location - why not the parking lot @ 3rd/Grand? Not sure if it's big enough, and I know we'd have a few rumblings since we just built it, but I've wondered why we can't make that or another location in Columbus Park work?
Kevin
I believe there is an abandonded railyard near the River Market. But I thought I recently read something about a developer purchasing the property for development. I think it is between 1st and 2nd Streets on Wyandotte. May not be large enough.
idan: i think you're referring to the old KC southern railyard, which has been sold for private development.
...and with lots of tax abatement, too, IIRC.
Would the Bannister Federal Complex be too far out? It's going to be empty in a short time. Troost Ave. terminates there, enough room for a huge park-n-ride, and seawalls, too. Um, flood walls.
Craig,
Not a bad idea. I used to work for AlliedSignal in Olathe and had some occasion to make it over to KCD. They're so maniacal about security over there I wonder if they will keep it buttoned up even after it is vacated?
Light rail aside we should start thinking about what to do with such a huge facility. I feel a post coming on...
Mark,
My father, who worked at the Bendix-Allied-etc. facility there most of his working life, always said that those flood walls were really for security. Now that the place is about to become empty less than 30 years after the wall was erected, it all seems a bit strange. The odds of the Blue River rising high enough to enter the Complex in any one year are probably less than 1 in 100, though they have the 100-year level and 500-year level marked on the wall. Maybe I'm channeling my late, conspiracy-theory dad, but that sounds like a propagandistic diversion.
Anyway, if we put some rail cars in there, we should be able to protect them -- from man and nature.
Oh, one other thing: there is a toxicity problem there. Brown field.
Craig,
There's always that pesky environmental aspect isn't there? I think everyone that grew up in KC has stories about the old Bendix Plant. Back in the early 70's I remember being told they made washing machine parts there.
That is one major chunk of real estate. It's going to be challenging to put it to good use.
why don't we put the facility in timbuktu...along with the entire light rail plan. throw chastain, the urban society and BNMI in there, too. none of the proposals thus far include maintenance faciltities, stations, rolling stock...just the rail. all light rail discussions should include a fullo bar, because the talk is the sort of blther one hears in a bar...loud, opiniated, and irrelevant!